Ability to pay child support webinar

Oh okay all right so we're going to get started can everyone let us know if you can hear us I apologize if there's an echo today what we're here for is a child support webinar we're going to be talking about ability to pay there will be a little bit there will be some other things that we're going to include in there but primarily this is about ability to pay and this webinar is to help you help yourself but it's also to help you help others so if you're an advocate or an activist and you're working with others then this should help you help them hopefully you're a member and you will get

additional training on these topics that we introduced to you today but for today we're going to be introducing you to some new arguments that we've developed because we've been hearing and watching more and more parents go to jail over not being able to pay child support and I'm sure you've all seen it in the news and some of you are facing the same situation if you haven't already had that happen to you but the first thing I want to do right now let's find out why all of you are here so if you could just drop a message real quick and tell me why you came today are you helping yourself are you trying to help others

are you helping a client like if you're an attorney or an advocate or an activist just put a type in there real quick why you're here today so we know what your interests are I'm going to give it a minute because there is a lag on my end [Music] okay so did everyone say weather here oh here we go I can see it all right so I see some people are saying personal interest helping others activists - mpa glad you're here I see a lot of advocates and let's see anyone here because they're getting ready to go to court and you're being threatened with jail do we have anyone here today with

that okay so somebody does have a hearing good this is going to really really help you this I'm glad you're here so we are not lawyers any of you who are members of our site know this today is supposed to be all members by the way we're delivering this information to you first so we can smooth the bugs out but also get it to you and a priority because you have shown an interest to learn the materials so we're just giving you all sorts of perspectives so that you can explore your options right we're not making decisions for you we don't practice the law we're not a substitute for a lawyer okay great

so I've heard from a bunch of you there are several of you who say that they're that you're you have a hearing coming up so if you do have a hear you coming up very quickly don't worry at the end of this webinar over the weekend because we do have to finalize the final edits you are going to receive a free copy of the motion where we put all these arguments that Ron's going to talk to you about today but before we get into that I'm going to go ahead and have you go ahead and start the slide presentation you guys are going to see some slides come up so we're going to

talk a little bit before we get into the actual content and discussion about the arguments that we put in this motion so I don't see the slides changing okay go ahead and and I'll just say next or the slide let me know if your visuals good somebody said the slides are small okay so go to the go to the first slide I just see the title right now though I might have a line all right so this presentation who is it for it is for people who are going broke doing things the way the attorneys telling you to do it it's for people who are tired of gambling on on relying on the judges

mercy it's for people who are tired of jumping through the hoops tired of going trying to figure out the rules going broke you want to know a better way so that's you you're in the right place next so you're in the right place if you were unable to pay your child support now we're not talking about people who just say screw it I'm not gonna pay it although I know Ron has arguments for that as well simply because we'll be talking about the fact that they enter these orders without giving you constitutional protections they do not use constitutionally compliant processes so you're in the right place if you're being threatened with jail if your

attorney has failed to resolve the problem and is getting more and more expensive for you or you may not be able to afford them at all and don't have one at all right now we're going to talk about that you're in the right place if you're being told to pay less than the monthly ordered amount or being told to pay a purge or some kind of token to stay out of jail you're also in the right place if you've been denied modification based on your ability to pay we're not talking about modification today we're talking to the people who were denied modification like if you guys have all followed cash you'll see

he was denied modification and what happened he ended up going to jail he couldn't pay next so today you're gonna learn to be the architect of your own future by learning how to defend yourself so even if you have a lawyer you need to take these arguments to that lawyer and insist that they use the arguments that you choose that are right for you and if they say no have them give you an explanation on why they're not going to use it and then you decide if that explanation sits right with you or not if it doesn't or you have questions you can always come back to us and ask us additional questions or

tell us what they said so we can help you address it next so in the next 45 minutes what are we going to tell you you're gonna learn how to overcome paralyzing fear present a powerful defense something that your attorney is not even telling you is available you're going to learn how to control your attorney and your money so they don't just spend your money and waste it away on the wrong things okay if they haven't made you broke already and get the results you want you're also going to learn how to make choices that lead you to your goal and your goal is if the child support is causing you an

inability to even pay your basic needs in life this should help you right so if you're dealing with the judge who's not corrupt then these arguments should resonate with them they should be persuasive if you're dealing with the corrupt judge then these arguments should give you the ability to appeal if they deny you this relief that these provides you you're also going to learn how to turn your anger and frustration into strength and power and be able to keep going even after you encounter setbacks so you'll know that you've got the best argument and you know what it I remember when I went through it it was the most empowering thing to know even

if I got denied even if I lost that hearing I knew that I was right and that if they kept pressing the issue that I could get them overturned so again we're not guaranteeing anything if you're not dealing with a corrupt appellate court or you have somebody helping you with the technicalities of how to file things because you can lose on technicalities and you get these arguments in there and they're not corrupt then these should be controlling again we're not lawyers so have your lawyer helped you with any of those technicalities you're also going to get in the next 45 minutes learn how to face your fears about angering the judge a lot of people we hear say I'm

not going to present it to the judge because my attorney says it will make them angry well they're already angry that you're not paying them so it's not going to really matter either way if they're angry I'm not angry if they're enforcing and you're facing contempt it's really not about anger anymore and they're not going to let you off if that's what you're thinking they want their money so anger really doesn't serve serve a place in this for you you're gonna have to just deal with that anxiety and overcome it and we think these arguments will help you with that you're gonna have to learn to turn chaos and confusion into direction right so

we're going to help you with that into confidence it'll calm yourself when you do have the right arguments and it will create order in your life and believe it or not even in these kind of situations that can be order I remember feeling a lot more relaxed once I knew my position what I was gonna argue and how to argue it I just didn't let anything else get to me you really can't so you're gonna learn the secret to defending yourself on child support enforcement practices and punishment get out of control next so our promise to you today is we are going to share with you the four step formula that we use and how you can

apply it to manage your case and manage your attorney and protect your freedom and peace to live how you choose and I want you to notice the the quote that I put on here is this I guess the only time most people think about injustice is when it happens to them and unfortunately that is true and that's from Charles Bukowski he was a writer and unfortunately a lot of you are going through this or you know people who are and that's why you're you're interested in it now and that's also why the problem continues because people are only interested when it happens to them but it is happening the more and more

people so there is more and more things that are being done as you notice a lot of states are no longer suspending licenses right a lot of states are no longer charging bail for people going to jail so there are a lot of changes happening because this is affecting so many people you guys have probably heard certain statistics erasing family or guys on their site there's over 22 million parents that are being erased from their children's lives well you can bet most of them are probably also facing child support issues whether or not they're behind in child support I don't know but they also probably have experienced a lot of these issues or are clean next so what's the

lay of the land like what's happening here with you guys well first of all you're in a process where it seems like there's no due process right you are facing court hearings where it seems like it doesn't matter what you say did you go in and it's like it's already planned out it's like is if they already have a warrant for you to go to jail even though you're supposed to be able to present a defense so what we're going to do is help you with applying a strategy so that when you face these kinds of situations you again can stay focused reframe the situation you're not going to be able to

change the fact that they're automatically assuming that they're in the right and they can punish you but what you can change is putting an argument in place that gives you the right to object to the punishment right and hopefully they understand that this is controlling you're going to tell them that and hopefully they follow it so you're going to learn to use the things you can and do what's in your control and then whatever isn't in your control you've built a foundation to be able to argue that and get whatever they did overturn I'll give you an example a mother in Tennessee years ago had a gag order placed on her and she made these

arguments she bought her green book not in the child's best interest read it on her own we didn't personally help her she figured this out just from the materials that she read through filed an appeal on a gag order that she was violating because by the way if they're enforcing child support you are violating their order ready whether its constitutional or not they can enforce unconstitutional orders you're violating it so she was and they were threatening her with jail she ended up getting out of that order in the appeal they overturned a gag order on her argument and that's what we're hoping to provide with you today to you today is an argument where you

can get what they are enforcing on you to stop okay that's the ultimate goal so what kind of strategy do you need for that see if I can see my slide your hang on a minute mmm all right so there's this five step formula to follow so you're going to identify the problem define the problem create a strategy to resolve the problem apply tactics designed to meet the goals underlying in that strategy and review your tactics against compliance with your strategy and achievement of the goals and adjust the as often as you need so we are already identifying the problem for you we're already defining the problems and we've already created a strategy for you

to resolve those problems so we've done the first three all you have to do is four and five okay next so that brings me to are you solving the real problem now which is why you're all here today right obviously you haven't solved the problem because you continue to get dragged back into court don't you you continue to be attacked you continue to face threats of if you still live in a state that suspends licenses if you live in a state that that what else do they do for people in behind in child support or punishment what else do they do in your state guys drop me a note in there and tell me do

they do anything else other than suspend licenses where you are tell me what your fears are and what you're facing so if you can type it down there for me I'd appreciate it because I'm kind of focused on the content so give me some examples of what you're facing okay so I don't let's see tax refunds okay that's a good one so John says they seize your tax refunds they freeze your bank accounts okay that's a good one to you John and we are actually going to mention a case where a parent went to federal court about garnishments on their bank accounts one of their arguments is that it's violating consumer credit protection act and they

are garnishing arrears and they've put a lien on their bank account they have the door has been open for them to move forward on that suit in federal court and we'll bring that up a little bit later and tell you the name of that and Monica don't give it away cuz I know you know it Monica's mom's unshackled and on here I see you're there thanks for coming Monica so what else did they do pass forward denials okay jail yes okay that's usually will like they threatened put people in jail suspend license okay okay so we'll go to the next thing thanks for dropping those answers there for me anytime you guys

can help out I get stuck I get a little stressed talking I'm much better writing the content material than appearing in person but we are going to try to do more of these so did you go the next slide alright so so what happens when you're facing all of this you have fallen into a toxic pattern haven't you they've dragged you into this toxic pattern like they've sucked you into this funnel that you can't get out of and somebody mentioned there's accumulating arere just that's right that's what put you into this toxic pattern and so what happens is you keep facing cordoned camis don't you you might go to one and pay for a purge to

keep you out of jail at that time and then they slap you with another one and then they slap you with another one I mentioned cash earlier this has happened to him for years it just it just becomes hopeless after a while you feel like everything's being forced on you you get very you get very stressed out you don't know what to focus on anymore life seems to be spiraling out of control right you can't figure out how to make more money so you can just pay basics just feed yourself in fact every time you make more money they want more money right they want to take it from you there's something you guys didn't

mention that they punished you with it they want you to sell your cars they want you to borrow begging and you know steal from friends and family and everyone else right and yes I agree they create moms unshackled says they create a victims and lock you into it and throw away the key I love your analogies mom's unshackled Monica is great with us so they constantly keep you in a panic right so if you're if you're constantly facing that you have no hope you make more money they take it you can't pay your bills you're gonna lose your car you can't go to jail I'm sorry sorry you can't get to work you lose your car it's

just it's just a never-ending cycle so you lose direction you're no longer achieving anything at work you're no longer productive because you're constantly working on how can I get out of this what do I need to do so now a lot of you lose your job you either lose it when you go to jail or you lose your job because you're trying to focus I'm not going to jail so I don't want to get you guys depressing down we're going to give you some solutions here okay so someone's asking how do they move or close the small screen in the lower right corner okay the small screen is us so I apologize if you can't tell what that is

they can't see the slides with that small screen is there any way to move that screen to another corner if you guys can't see the slides don't worry you're all gonna get these slides okay so next no yeah just take us off of it and we'll come back after the slide presentation so we're going to remove our the view of us off of the slide presentation so you guys can read it for temporarily and you can go the next one and that picture by the way you guys I love that picture the artist gave us permission to use it you're all watering your worry tree so I that picture really spoke to me and I think it would speak

to you so you notice the more you water that tree the more that tree grows and we want to switch you over to being able to water the other tree so this presentations for parents who are feeling pressured into agreeing to the purges or other punishments so this for people who just came in we did say who the presentations for but we didn't go over these reasons you're feeling bullied lied to alone unprotected by your attorney then I'm glad you're here please stay here if you're feeling courtroom panic anxiety PTSD so every time you have to you know there's a court hearing coming up you probably can't eat that day or even that week

you're so panicked that you go into anxiety and every time you have to think about going to another hearing you relive it again you really relive all the negative things that happened in the last one so we want to help you with that and also you feel helpless in the system you're getting depressed confused or overwhelmed so we're going to help with that as well and you're also experiencing hopelessness with the depression now if you're clinically depressed make sure you get assistance with that and if you guys notice at the very bottom of our slides now that our picture is on video of us there is a suicide hotline there and the reason I use all the rights

movement hotline is not because I'm trying to exclude moms which by the way they do help mothers as well they helped me when I was going through it in fact I didn't I didn't have a moms group to help me but that numbers there because the people that answer that phone relate to what you're going through they know what you are are going through this national suicide hotline I don't know who's answering that not that it's not good it's valuable but I wanted you guys to have a number with people who relate to you that's especially important when you're going through what you're going through so if you're tired of feeling like a victim you guys are in the right

place next so this webinar is your roadmap the motion arguments that we give you the strategies that we laid out the steps we're going to teach you this is your roadmap so that you can be the driver of your case you're going to learn to take control of your case you're going to learn to manage your case and you're gonna learn to manage any attorneys if you can still afford them that way the dreams that you had in life you could start thinking about again you can thrive again that's our goal here we want you to build a dream and thrive so I'll have the same Drive dream and thrive that's our motto

here this starts with one decision though you have to decide to learn your rights I know a lot of people here don't use your rights and tourney's will tell you they don't work but I'm here to tell you and I told you earlier a mom used them and she got her gag order overturned I know a gag here in Texas that use it and we know lots of people when I'm giving you specifics a dad here in Texas used them because he wasn't seeing his children because the court left the decision up to the children or when they wanted to see him and he won so I know your rights were what doesn't work is when they convince

you not to use your rights and then now after you get a bad result you decide I'm gonna use them now that's when they don't work so you have to start using them from the beginning so it starts without one decision to use your rights learn your rights so that you can use them so that means your results that you're getting right now are directly tied to the information you're provided right so if you don't have information about what your rights are then you don't know you have other choices that you can make your your field of like your knowledge your sphere of knowledge is very very limited it's limited to what the attorneys tell you so right now

you're all just kind of spiraling because you're getting very limited narrowed direction so we want to open that up open up your options by giving you more information then you have more choices and your choices will be directly related to the foundation that you started with so right now you don't have a foundation you don't know what your rights are you don't know how to build on them you don't know when they're being violated so you see the pattern here they keep you ignorant so they can victimize you so your decisions now are going to be directly related to the information you have available which is going to be a wide range of information now and your

choices now are going to be tied to your results and you are going to succeed with your goals you're going to be effective you're going to know what to act on and you are gonna defeat these abuses that you're facing right now and you're suffering and that's why at the bottom of the slide that's what I call my liberation motto it's delivery and the way you liberate yourself from these abuses legal abuses is to be effective acting defeat off of the information and the choices that now open up to you from learning the rights foundation right so you're gonna learn your foundation and then we're gonna build on it next so just kind of wanted to introduce us to

you guys this webinar is run by me and Ron Palmer I'm sherry Palmer and it's free because we want to change this system that has been our mission from the beginning so this webinar is consistent with our mission to change the system to force it to follow the Constitution and to teach you all parents advocates attorneys how to protect yourself and whoever you're helping and your children and their children from legal abuse so we wrote the books together the motion arguments we create courses and we're going to be opening up role-playing in our membership site also you guys can use this information to accomplish that mission without all of you we could not accomplish any of this so

thank you so much for being there we love that you're all focused now and keeping yourself healthy so that you can provide the vehicle right you guys are the vehicles to make this happen okay so Ron's a Marine trained in war strategy and he provides tools to help you reclaim your life and get better results with your custody battle I you guys probably know I was a mom I am a mom and I got alienated from my children and so I decided I wanted to help other parents avoid that and come up with solutions like we are here today and help you all get better results that we did both win in our situation without even having all

these materials we studied and we just didn't have it down in writing we decided to provide it for you after we've been through it since that time we've studied even further and now we have even more powerful material than we had when we went through it so you can do this and you can be successful so you're all going to get a free motion at the end of this webinar and one week of membership if you're not a member already which you guys are so you can read from the number one parental rights book at the end of the webinar and so you guys are actually going to get a packet of cases and information related

to this webinar at the end in your membership site next okay no just leave it on that slide actually so I'm going to switch this over to Ron and we're gonna go off the slide presentation so if you can show Ron on this video now he's going to talk to you about the material that we created in the motion you guys haven't seen yet I know you're excited and as he's presenting I'm gonna be watching the questions so you can ask me any questions and I'll I'll make sure that it's getting address or if it's gonna be relevant to what he's pretty presenting then I'll make sure he knows about it all right so here's run yeah all right

so we've been spending a lot of time over the last decade on the core constitutional arguments around child around child custody possession all these things and we we believe cracked the code on all of that and we have multiple cases going to the Supreme Court this year and hopefully we'll get some favorable feedback from that court but our entire strategy has always been to force these courts to commit errors just like in sports where you force the other team to commit errors everything we've done has been about forcing them to commit these errors so that we can then challenge the errors and the appellate courts not getting in and argue about what's best for the child or

not messed with the child but I'd argue about what the law is and whether or not they are violating the law which we all know they are but to be able to prove that you have to get them to commit errors and the commitment and writing in a way that you can appeal it we've been working through those arguments and forcing them to do that so very recently I've been able to focus a little bit more on the child support issue we've been watching this for years and watching attorneys do not make the right arguments not really defend their clients and just kind of hold your hand while you get screwed which is what they

do in this industry we all know it but I was able to dedicate some time to putting together a motion and this is all based on a Supreme Court opinion from 2011 it's called Turner vs. Rogers and in this case the man who was charged with child support asked for it an attorney to be provided for him and it was denied and he took this challenge all the way up to the Supreme Court now on the attorney issue he lost but the Supreme Court still overturned his case and forced him to go back and redo it and they did this based on due process all the kinds of arguments we've been making

new process and so we wanted to share what the Supreme Court said there and the standards they set there and show you how they can help in your child support issues today and to prevent them from enforcing and putting you in jail lawfully legally everything I say has that caveat lawfully and legally we know they're criminals okay they cannot see Ron can you put him up take the slides down yeah okay hang on guys we're getting the slides taken down so you can see Ron thank you mom's unshackled she put the case up for you you know all the case citations you'll need are in the motion already so don't worry about that at

this point you see them in the motion and we're going to send out a copy of Turner with the motion so you don't need to even go look at it up you'll have a copy with it yeah we're actually sending you guys a copy from the actual Supreme Court register so it's not from a scholar beautiful no right the moment is all right it's going to be updated it's going to be updated real soon with with the actual definitive version I don't want to we don't want to steal from Google Google Scholar but they do allow sharing like this I've looked it up and researched it and I do believe they allow sharing under their rules but

I'm not sure if you can see me or not yet but I'm gonna continue to talk yeah they kept all right so what you're facing when you're facing child support enforcement is a contempt hearing what that means is the court has made an order and someone is claiming that you have failed to live up to that order follow that order and if they are asking the court to punish you or one of two things to punish you for not living up to that order or to compel you to follow the order and that's important because those are the two types of contempt one is criminal when there's punishment involved the other is civil when all

they're trying to do is compel you to follow the order both of them can get you in jail okay the difference is that in civil contempt you can get out of jail if you do what you're told to do in the order criminal contempt you cannot you're paying if I you're being punished for the actin that doesn't matter whether you pay it later or not right so most of these cases are similar content the degree of due process you receive is very dependent upon whether these are civil actions or criminal actions and the court talks about this in turn so ultimately but because these are civil actions unless they screw up but generally they're

civil actions because they're civil actions certain certain due process guarantees or constitutional guarantees don't apply such as a sixth amendment that provides for guarantees in criminal prosecutions and that's where you would get the right to have an attorney appointed for you as to the sixth amendment and so they decided that that didn't apply because this was civil because the nature of the case in this case it was the other parent bringing the contempt charges not the state not the Attorney General not the office of child support men are any of those places but it was the other parent and they said because these are parents versus parents it would be unfair for the state to pay for

one parents attorney enough the other parents attorney and it would mess with the balance of power so they decided he wasn't required to have an attorney of 24 huh excuse me they were very clear however that this could change if the state were pursuing the individual so if you're getting sued by the Attorney General our the office of child support enforcement they have attorneys in there then this all changes and you can argue for an attorney now the problem with that is your attorneys aren't doing the right job so it's not really going to help but you can still make that argument and possibly prevail but let's talk about what's required in contempt

there are three basic issues in contempt you have to have a valid court order you have to be aware of that court order and you have to knowingly or willfully not comply with that order or they can hold you in contempt so they have to meet all three of these conditions now the first one whether or not it's a valid court order to defeat the order in that way requires you to do what's called a collateral attack on the up on the order this is a very difficult very technical thing I've done one in my own case didn't quite meet the the right requirements so I know how tough it is still got what I needed out of it even

though I didn't prove that collateral attack it's very very hard most attorneys aren't even really capable of it so stay away from that unless you just unless you have money and a good attorney stay away from that we think you could win on that in an honest Court which again we don't believe there are many honest courts in family law and if you had a good attorney with our arguments but again very very difficult so we silas suggest you stay away from that if you're asking why use this stuff you guys I'm here I'm just answering people questions and and other people who bought lost in the email if if you're asking yourself why use this

information then they're not gonna care they're not going to use it or do what you want it's because if you don't they never will right and it always takes me back to women's fight for rights minorities fights for rights and all those different movements if they didn't keep pushing even when they got tonight right the lunch counter sit-ins some of them were thrown out arrested beat up killed burned they didn't stop when you're right and you know your rights are you're entitled to those rights you don't stop that's the only way you defeat them so regardless of whether there's gonna be another thousand people who get denied you keep going because eventually someone won't get denied and

I'm telling you right now some people that's happening with already and that only happens because you guys have decided if you've had enough enough is enough and you're willing to deal with whatever punishment they put forward but what you're doing is you're putting out those seeds for those people who don't know what to do who don't find us you are leaving a path of bread breadcrumbs for them so that people can carry on this effort and as this effort continues it will eventually change the system all right so the second element is whether or not you know of the order this is rarely ever an issue you almost always know about the order if it is an issue

for you you'll want to come to us directly on that and we'll talk to you about that but the third one is you have to willfully violate the order the term willful is very important here because it opens up defenses multiple possible defenses the court in this case spoke of a one defense the most prominent most important defense in these cases and it was very clear and saying there could be others right so it's not the court isn't saying this is the only one but your ability to pay is the crew question in these cases and if you do not have the ability to pay the court was adamantly clear if they cannot put

you in jail period the end they have no authority to do so one second okay so that gets to the third element of contempt right you have to willfully disobey your inability to pay is a is something that's out of your control and therefore they cannot punish you for it and they cannot compel you with jail time to pay what you're unable to pay right because there that's nonsensical basically is what the court says because if you can't pay you can't pay enough putting you in jail so I won't make that any better in fact restore make it less likely all right so we bring that ability to pay argument here and I know

other people have brought it and your standard thing you get is you know judge asked you have a dollar in your pocket you say yeah well you have the ability to pay your going to jail that judge is why I see you holding a cell phone and so you can afford it because you have a smartphone in your hand those judges are all violating the law right they are acting illegally but it's your job to show them why because this is an affirmative defense it means that you have the burden of proving it right and showing that you have the inability to pay once you show you have the inability to pay then they are done they

can't do anything to you they're over the enforcement's done and they cannot convict you right legally and lawfully but they can require you to carry that burden of proving and they'll an ability to pay but they have the game rigged as you know if you've been through this how do you prove you're not able to pay when they will say if you have a dollar in your pocket you pay if you go out and lie cheat and steal to get a loan you can pay think the reason they get away with this is because there is no standard of ability to pay I've yet to see a state that has an ability to pay standard and yet they

want you to prove your ability to pay or your inability to pay and there is no standard for that's what we call a vague law that is unenforceable it's also ex post facto which means they decide after the fact because the standard isn't defined until after you preside to present your testimony then the court comes in after the fact and says well I'm gonna make up the standard in my mind as we go and I don't think you've met the standard that moves around in my mind right the goalposts they've moved the goalposts the reason they're able to move the goalposts is because the goalposts are set in stone they're not written down

don't make me knows what they are so the key thing that this motion does is it challenges the state's ability to pay standard as being constitutionally inadequate because it is unconstitutional eBay there's a couple other minor arguments in there around the two but that is the core argument because no one has written it down no one has served it on you've provided it to you it is impossible for you to prove you have an inability to pay when the judge is going to make that up in their own mind after you've already testified right that is unconstitutional so that's the key argument their inability to pay but the other part of ability to pay is

what are you able to pay what would be in that standard and those are some of the things you'll want to argue but one of the key things that's in the standard is that the standard applies to the order as written your ability to pay means that your ability to pay the full and total amount ordered in the prior written order that's being that you're being held to it is not your ability to pay five dollars towards it or a dollar for it it doesn't mean that if you found 50 cents on the ground on your way in the court you have that in your pocket that you're in violation of the order

because you didn't give it to the judge okay so one when I want to interrupt around here for a minute mom some shackled says there is no can't pay as long as you have a car a home a kidney etc that's part of what we're talking about here today in this motion it all gives you argument for the states not having a well-defined ability to pay policy you bring up a great day in kidney right can the quota can the government force you to go have surgery and sell a kidney to pay for a debt or any duty or anything they want no it's clearly unconstitutional therefore that would violate public policy and could not be in the standard

but because it's not written down these judges get away with it and we say that in the motion we tell the judge very specifically in the motions that if you want to impose these draconian standards than the only way you can do it is go back and modify the original order and write those kryptonian standards down in the order for public consumption so that everybody will know what you're doing you can see what you're doing and we tell them that point-blank in the motion okay now some of you I want to put this caveat out there some of you they know how delicate your situation is you may want to take some of this argument out

of this motion and keep just the the court apart or about Turner and tone down some of the rest right because this motion is also written as a political statement to put these judges on notice that we're not putting up with this garbage anymore now I didn't go overboard and do anything that's going to get you in real trouble but you want to read it through and make sure that you're comfortable with what it says to weigh assess take things out tone them down if you want obviously you have your attorney do this right if you can manage an attorney but part of the standards is what constitutes an ability to pay if

you haven't eaten in two three days and you have a dollar in your pocket are you allowed to feed yourself with that dollar or do you have to give it to the court you have to starve yourself to death to meet the obligation of this order that's a valid issue in the ability to pay and it goes into what Cherie was talking about in this other recent court case and in the weather what was the name of that the the court case no deal with the the debt the fair debt practices consumer edit protection yeah that one right so that act actually hasn't I've read this for other reasons but and not recently but I

have read it it has any things like that that say what they can take and what they can take what they can garnish you know if they can't garnish they basically basically they cannot legitimately deprive you of your your ability to sign yourself all right they say they can't say you have to pay your debtors even if it means you're gonna die of starvation right they can't say you have to sell your car fest only means for you to get to work and earn a living right all of these kind of things have to be in the standard and you have to be able to argue against them they can't just say but you have a cell phone

in your hand therefore you can have an ability to pay well you know what maybe my mother took pity on me from what you've done to me and she pays for this farm that's not uncommon in these scenarios where you've got grown people mostly men but grown people in their 30s and 40s that are practically destitute because of what these courts have done and their families are stepping in and helping them with the basics but if they have the phone they're in court the judges don't slam them part that's why we have to hold them the standards that's what this motion is about and they have to serve these standards on you make them available to you prior to

the hearing they can't just drop them on you in the hearing and say okay here's the standard give me your defense you have to have adequate notice to prepare your defense that adequate notice is a minimum of 10 days so if you file this motion and they follow the law and they haven't notified you of these things they would have to notify you and then reschedule for another 10 days out but they can't notify you because they don't have anything in written and writing and so that's going to be a catch-22 for them they can't provide you the standard because they don't have one and that's where you're calling yes on minute

you're doing it in writing and you're doing it under a due process standard that says I'm going to take this all the way to the top I won't have the Supreme Court look at this I can convince them to and say and show what you people are doing okay so that's what this motion is designed and geared to do and that's what the argument around Turner will be there are also some other arguments in there I said earlier you don't want to do a collateral attack right now I did put in there and attack on the underlying order but I phrased it in a very precise way that should not be read as a collateral

attack on the order because I'm not telling them that the order itself was an invalid order what I'm telling them is it doesn't provide them what the court requires to violate due process in a specific way and that specific way is free speech and freedom of religion and is tied to compelled speech just this last year the Supreme Court had a case about government labor unions for labor unions for government employees where they were requiring these labor union employees to employees of the labor union but they were union members to pay dues and then they were using these dues to to fund political messages that the members may or may not have liked

recruit them and what the court said very clearly is that this is illegal you cannot compel someone to speak on topics they disagree with and you cannot take money from them for the purpose of compelling them to speak on topics they disagree on that is hugely vital now this case also went into something that's very important for us and other elements but right we've been saying for years that you have a constitutional right to divorce that that right is protected by the First Amendment as a free association right and in this case and that's cited in the motion the Supreme Court discussed your association rights under the First Amendment and clearly addressed your right not to

associate as an essential element probably the most essential element of the Association right it is your right to say no I'm not associating you FRU with you for whatever reason I want and that is the fundamental constitutional right the first amendment that tells us that everything they're doing in family law related to divorce is illegal and unconstitutional because everything they're doing is a punishment for your constitutionally protected lawful choice to dissolve the marital Association to choose that you're no longer going to associate with this person and they punished that choice it's a privacy choice protected by the first fourth and Fourteenth Amendments is protected as strict scrutiny and most importantly for the arguments we make it's First

Amendment protected right which has a massive amount of press set behind it that's why we make these First Amendment arguments everywhere now we made this shift a few years ago and start arguing heavily First Amendment because that is where we get the best protection we found cases that say very clearly that parents and children that close family members have a First Amendment protected right of family association that is both intimate and expressive the you ask your attorney first thing your attorneys don't tell you oh no no no your your intimate association rights are only protected by the Fourteenth Amendment not the First Amendment they're dead wrong I have supreme court case law that says

they are dead wrong and they say that because the Fourteenth Amendment protections are not very well litigated there's not a lot of case law and they can fudge and cheat and continue to collect all the money they're collecting screwing you around all right so you got to hold your attorneys feet to the fire as well and force them to make the right arguments and that's First Amendment in everything we did in that argument is here and essentially what it is saying is that this court order does not provide on the face of the order the proof that the court needs this necessary for this court to compel you to speak on matters of conscience and

child rearing and matters of religion that you disagree those are matters of conscience they are absolutely protected they can't punish you for matters of conscience period they can't force you to go in the military they can't force you to kill people all right there's massively litigated cases on this very famous cases on this they make movies on on this one of our greatest war heroes ever won his case I'm not having to carry a weapon in this hacksaw Ridge is one of those cases that's a variable recent movies I think Audie Murphy might have been the other one from World War two or World War one but these guys have won their

right not to have to carry weapons and kill people because it was a matter of conscience now the hacksaw rich case the guy became a medic and he saved lives he never kidney never carried a weapon he never killed anybody but he saved a lot of American lives he wasn't a coward he wasn't afraid to go into battle he was just not going to shoot anybody because it was against his religious convictions and the Supreme Court has upheld those yeah that one didn't even have together Supreme Court because the law was already well settled okay so this is very important very powerful force here to use these arguments and say we're not

challenging the underlying order and saying that it's an invalid order and therefore you can't enforce it what we're saying is that in this enforcement action and only in this action if this court is to try to compel me to pay someone else to speak in the manner that I disagree with this court doesn't have what is required under the First Amendment for this court to compel me in that manner can you okay so if I was just listening to that information I would be a little lost right now I'd be like okay why are you talking about compelled speech and how does that relate to the fact that I had support arrears and they're telling me I'm in

contempt and we're here for enforcement so now you aren't you making a collateral argument of lateral attack now it's not collateral because we're not staying we're not making the the argument that the underlying order was invalid or that the proceedings weren't effective we know they were but we're not making that argument here well we're making the argument of is that this is a new proceeding this enforcement proceeding is an entirely new separate proceeding and in this proceeding the court is being asked to compel you to speak on matters that you disagree with why not the way they're compelling you to speak is the payment of money okay so I'm gonna answer my own question which

is they are now enforcing and if an orders unconstitutional in the beginning they're limited or parts of the order or whatever they're trying to enforce is not enforceable that's what he's arguing he's giving you an argument so she's crossing the technical line on me here and that's not that's not correct to make sure but no you cannot say the underlying order is defective you can't say it's void okay I'm not saying that that's what you would have to say to attack that order no but what I'm saying is if they're trying to enforce something that they're not allowed to enforce no no no it's not even really about enforcement right it's about being compelled okay guys so

I'm making that argument because that's what some of you guys are saying right here in this thread so he's like that you're saying your argument mean they violated due process the orders void it's unconstitutional so I was responding to a few people and don't make those arguments you'll lose and if you want it would take a trip to the Supreme Court you're not prepared to do all right so what you're saying is your honor regardless of the type of proceeding I understand this is an enforcement proceeding I understand you're trying to in the force end order but I'm not challenging the constitutionality of that order here today but with you're going to do a

compelling action if you're going to order a compulsive action if you're going to punish me until I comply in this new proceeding separate proceeding regardless of the basis for that and that compulsion is to compel me to speak against my wittle then the only way you can make that compelling command is if you meet the First Amendment requirements and those first amendment requirements are strict scrutiny which means they ask to have a compelling justification narrowly tailored statute and they must apply the least restrictive means possible to achieve that they have no compelling and justification and in fact because these are matters of consciousness there is no compelling justification the government can make

beyond the very basic minimum needs of the child and you'll see some of that language in there too we talked about what that you want the state pays to foster families so then that's an important distinction if you really want to get down in the weeds you say you can even make the argument I'm not even arguing that the bare minimum assistance requirement hits that level here but certainly beyond the level of minimum minimum reasonable needs for the child or beyond the level that the state pays for foster care families any money spent beyond that is discretionary and the only purpose for that money is is a less than compelling justification we know

its title 4d right and that and I put that in there by the way title 4d I also call it socialism and a income redistribution plan under a socialist policy now some states they'll they'll say so what we love those in Texas held your child telling the judge he's taking a socialist action he's socialist they're gonna go catatonic they're not gonna know what to do with that but the point of those arguments is those are less than compelling that they are not sufficient to compel you to speak we're meeting minimum basic needs of the child possibly could be right but beyond that any excess of that is not compelling and cannot meet the First Amendment

requirements and that's what you that's how you go after these people and we'll develop this further and I'll explain this further I'm going to do a version of the motion that's annotated if you've read the green book you see at the end we annotated Troxel with red red text that was right justified so that you could separate it out I'm gonna do the same thing in this motion and put some these details in the motion to help you understand where I'm coming from and what I'm doing there but those are the key things the number one thing here is you if you can demonstrate an inability to pay if there were a reasonable

standard first there has to be a reasonable standard if they can't provide a reasonable standard they're dead in the water if they applied for these a reasonable standard which would mirror something along the consumer debt act or whatever it is I can't remember that work that phrase but sharing oh make sure you have the right term but it would have to mirror that and if it doesn't mirror that then you can attack that standard directly get away from this child this child that know this is the standard is the standard constitutional or not and that would have to allow you the ability to survive and to live and to take care of your own

needs right and so that's the number one argument number two argument is that they can only compel you to pay what the order says to the full amount that the order says unless the order says you either pay $300 a week or you pay $20 if you don't have that or $10 if you don't have that or if you have a dollar in your pocket you have to pay that the order would have to specifically say that because they were enforcing the specific terms of that order the court has zero legitimate authority to change the terms of that order in an enforcement hearing here at the end they can't do it they try to now this

distinction is important because there are two portions to this enforcement the first is adjudication where they determine whether or not you violated the order which requires those three elements we talked about earlier and then the second part is is disposition when they do something about it that's when they can properly do purge amounts and those kind of things and say well if you pay this lesser amount I'll let you out of jail they can do that in disposition but they cannot have a dispositional hearing until they prove you that you violated the order in the adjudication if they don't meet that standard the second part of the hearing never ever happens so if they try to say

well I'm going to order you to pay this lesser amount as a part Mountains you object you say I object your honor purges our dispositional they are not adjudicated and you cannot get to disposition until we resolve this matter of adjudication and that has clear constitutional standards that we've addressed in the motion right so these are tools that help you understand how to fight this hopefully preferably you have a good attorney the younger ones are usually better at this because they're still naive and still believe in right and wrong and all that stuff and they don't have kids to feed and all these other things that we that the other calls the other attorneys

to go bad right but they're just they just don't have the right information certainly the other attorneys aren't teaching them the right information right because they don't want to say hey we've been doing it all wrong because we're you know we're corrupt because we want to eat and make a lot of money so if you can get a good attorney that's willing to listen and you put these arguments before them and say this is what I want to argue here's Turner vs.

Rogers Supreme Court clearly has set these things that is clearly the law and the glue law has to be followed and so and all the other life stuff we put in our other motions is there proving that the judges are state actors proving that they have to follow the Constitution all of these kind of things alright there's also a bit of a recusal statement in this motion we have a recusal motion that's coming on the heels of this one very soon now it's going to be state specific the first one coming out will be Texas the reason for that is that we have to we have to tie in the rules of

procedure they're state specific but it will provide a blueprint for every other state because the core arguments are still due process and shortly on the heels of that we're going to have one about the gal that gets down to recusing the judge and proving that the gals are completely and utterly unconstitutional as they're implemented today and so a couple of things we've got coming all the underlying basic arguments these core cases are there you'll see them cited in this motion the way you'll see them cited in all the other motions because we distilled this down to the core essence and refrain some supreme for cases that have been out there for a

long time but then a that have been the discussion of them has been carefully crafted to avoid the powerful portions of it that would change this because nobody involved wants to change it the judges don't want to change if the attorneys don't want to change it nobody else wants to change it just the sport soccers are getting you know screwed by it we're the only ones that want to change it and so over the last decade we've distilled those things that we made them crystal clear and maybe condense them and made them as powerful as we could and now we're repeating them and all of these and all of these motions and the purpose of that is to

hammer these judges from every direction to to shine a light on what they're doing and every part of the proceedings and every place we can every parent in every state we can get to do this but these arguments in those but these judges don't notice just builds the pressure that we need to get this changed across the country so I wanted to mention something because Monica mom's unshackled brought up that she used the USDA child rearing guidelines I'm presuming Monica that that was to give persuasive argument that they were that they should be charging on the same amount that foster care is charging and you went there to get that amount to to

back up your argument right because you're using authorities and reputable places to back up your argument however I wanted to point out that that's kind of a side issue what we're hoping is that you're using the correct constitutional arguments originally first to fight the idea that they can even remove your right to care for your child directly and that you're not having to come in on the back end and say hey let's use all these guidelines to establish how much I should be paying that should really only come into play if you are are willingly or you are walking away from the child and so you want to provide for the child

and you don't want the state to impose more on you than they provide for children or that they have established is necessary to provide for that child right right and so you'll see some of that in the motion interestingly enough in taxes and I cited this Texas case when we were still operating under the bastardy laws everywhere except in family law which is the place we're still operating in them but for a long time there's a famous Supreme Court case about child support and it's from came from Texas and it's related to this one and I put that out there before but essentially for after the bastard laws being overturned in the early to

mid-1970s by the Supreme Court fathers who had bastard children in Texas were not required to pay for those children in fact Texas provided a defense against child support if you were an unwed father you could not be required to pay child support so the state gave these fathers a defense because of the bastardy laws and because of their beliefs about marriage back then and so one of the sections I put in here is about moral outrage and how these judges will get on their high horse and and treat you like you're just a horrible person because you don't want to pay their extortion and you'd rather raise your child yourself I put a section in

there addressing that and this is under that section and it calls BS on them and say look Texas you yourself provided an affirmative defense for unwed fathers so don't come in here telling us that this is some all of a sudden some crucial moral high-ground that you have that you can tell us we're awful people because we want to care for our children directly you're full of it and I've made up foot several of those kind of arguments in there to put the judge on notice and to give you an idea of how to argue and hopefully you guys can come up with others of them other scenarios where these arguments similar

arguments would play and let's tear these judges down off their high horse by showing them that they have no moral high-ground whatsoever that their only incentive for this child and support is title t title for deed money and their socialist agenda to redistribution wealth right and hammer them on that it don't come in here telling me I'm a bad parent because I don't want to pay your extortion money I don't want to pay your title deed for money I don't want to support your corrupt system and we know very clearly what your corrupt system is and this motion spells it out so you just cut the judge off the knees that they don't get

there and rant and rave at you like a lot of these like to do when you're at your most vulnerable most offensive in front of them they have all the power and they want to stand up in their high horse knowing they're violating their oaths and I put that in there too right you didn't violate euro the judges violating their oath and they know they're doing it so they have no moral high ground and we're shining the light on that now that's one of the things you'll want to decide do I want to do that or not right because there's some risk that goes along with that but that's totally up to you you can do the

the Turner argument and the First Amendment compelled speech argument without any of the rest of that if you choose just take it out but it's there and made available for you and those of you who basically have nothing else to lose and you want to fight and you want to make this political as much as it is legal then there's a section in there talking about that too if this is brought as a as a political position against the judiciary of the state demanding that the judiciary of the state cease violating fundamental rights of parents and children and to begin to afford constitutional protections the way they know they're supposed to right

and so by putting that in there they'll they'll scoff at that but it's that's directly protected by the First Amendment you petition the government for redress of grievances it's one of the ways we can provide this information to you right because when you're joining our membership and when you're joining the father's rights movement these other movements what you're doing is joining a political organs designed to change the system that political expression is protected that membership in those groups is protected when we are all members of these groups and working together towards this political objective we can share way more legal details than we might be able to otherwise we have a very very strong

affirmative defense when we come in and share these intimate details about the law and about how you can argue them with given the context and details of your case that gives us a lot more protection so that's why we start putting some of that in there and by the way so being a member of our group also protects all of you so you are doing advocacy work like mom's unshackled and helping other people and some other people have mentioned that they are you're protected because we are all a part of this group I also want to bring up that sometimes you'll run into people and encounter this is for advocates but also for the parents doing it themselves

you're gonna run into issues with well if why do you keep using these if people are getting denied like so let's say something's out there or people have been arguing their constitutional rights and they keep getting denied first of all the reason you want to use our materials is because we have evolved the argument and what we craft and create a lot of it is novel argument nobody else has it because Ron or I actually created it so it came from studying the materials and then simulating them into our analysis and coming out with a solution remember I said earlier goes back to forcing errors and enforcing a specific type of error some very

specific legal errors that you can appeal own and win them so that's what I was reminded that swai I brought this up because I wanted to remind you again what the purpose is is when you're using the right materials with the right arguments then you force those errors now you've got a good solid foundation to make the changes you need to make right to get it up into the United States Court so I just wanted to raise that again because it's that important that if somebody comes to you and so I'm not going to use that I'm told though you know I'll just skip tonight well what you're really looking for is to make

them put it on the record what you're really looking for like he said it's the force Aaron did you bring up the baseball example yeah so and so one of the reasons we like to work as closely as we can with organizations like the father's rights movement is because this has to work as a coordinated effort strictly working as an advocacy and going out and protesting it's going to get you a lot of attention it's not going to get you any real changes the attorneys of the legislators will if you get enough people they'll treat you like you're wonderful and they'll love you when you come into their office and they'll make all these new statutes for

you that have so many loopholes than them that you didn't anticipate then nothing ever changes alright so this has to be a multi-pronged attack and we've been we've approached this this way from the very beginning that's that's what I did in in corporate America very large-scale multiple attack multi year programs to do fundamental change across the entirety of organizations and some of the largest organizations in the world right and so I apply these skills here these legal arguments will work if you have if you if you think back to any type of movement we had before they had the work both of these elements were in place and when you had ten black people

or ten women or ten gay people arguing and saying and we have these constitutional rights the court from blue fast come and ignore them and laugh at them when they had 10,000 making the exact same arguments the courts could no longer do that right and that's what we have to build here and that's why we've been working from the very beginning with the advocacy groups having hope helping craft some of the language around these are constitutional arguments and they were finding these arguments and putting them out there and tools that you can use and parents can use to hammer the hell out of these courts in these legislatures until they see and overwhelming tide that they

cannot resist so so remember what you're doing is trying to get those errors to bubble up to the foundation that you have to hammer them with okay that's that's the goal here and sooner or later and it meant probably many younger judges but you're gonna put these arguments before judges and these judges gonna say even then you're telling them you took an oath this is what your oath says and sooner or later these judges are going to start coming out the woodwork and say yeah I made that open I'm going to I'm gonna stand up and uphold it and those are fifty billion dollar industry is going to drop on my head but you know what I'm

going to honor my oath there are judges that will do that yeah one of the ways that they will help them come out and do that is if we've got thousands of people screaming the same things and they know it's solid and they know it's bright yeah so if your judge is truly neutral and following the Constitution then there's gonna be no error to be forced and so when we say we're forcing the error we're forcing them to put the error in writing right and forcing them to put it in the record so that it can be properly challenged and exposed so they get away with it when it's hidden that's why they're trying to scare you

from using these arguments it's also why they try to shut you out from using the arguments I know a lot of you do get shut out that's why because they know their time is running out and you're getting them to put it on the run you guys are building the pressure we're all building the pressure we need to do it all right so we mentioned let's see I wanted to mention a couple other things to you guys because some people have mentioned in the in the comments one of them's like I don't have an order yet well you they cannot enforce anything that is not in writing now that doesn't mean just going and not follow

whatever it is you and the X or soon-to-be-ex are following right now I actually tried that one time new temporary order had been made in my case where we had an equal final order and then the X took me back and got a modification this wasn't on child support but I want to use it as an example and so I was going continuing to go by the old final order because the temporary order I couldn't enforce and the reason I was trying to do that is the intelecom entered is because he was violating right he wasn't following the new temporary order that the judge ordered orally and he wasn't following the old one I just wasn't getting my

children so we were in a loop like an endless loop where I was losing out so that's our next webinar that's what leads me to that leads me to our next webinar which is going to be enforcement of your parenting plans and your child custody orders we're going to give you some solutions on that we're not going to leave you yet we're still going to do some Q&A but just for a few minutes because I have been responding to some questions and respond to that question sure all right so if you don't have an order yet then you need to be looking at our other motions particularly the pre-trial framing motions that has these

First Amendment arguments in them many of them it has at least the kernel of the compelled speech argument in there but I think it's fleshed out I'd have to go back and look but though you want to get those arguments in there before your judge particularly if the First Amendment arguments around child support before you get hit with a draconian child support order if you've already got that compelled speech First Amendment argument in there then you're in a much stronger position okay well there's two situations where you may not have an order one is you haven't gone to trial yet and so you don't have a final order and the other situation is where

something has been ordered like even if it's temporary order but it's not in writing you've gone to trial but the orders not Interjet like I said we're going to talk about that in the next webinar on enforcement because a lot of people think that your case ends once you hit that final trial and you leave that day that's actually just the first part of litigation so we're gonna we're not gonna are we gonna talk about that too much as he's trying to give away my next webinar I'll give it away but there are post trial actions you have we need to take so the moment you haven't or a signed order you need to

take these post trial actions and you can raise objections there and and make sure that you've prepared your stuff for appeal there and make sure that every every constitutional issue you want to raise is before the court and that's the time to do it so okay so anyway so he's giving away some of the other webinar thank you very much really that's not related to what we're doing here today so anyways I just wanted to address that if you do not have an order in writing you can get in touch with us as well to ask what tools and materials that we have the closer you work with us the more successful this movement will be

and so we're gonna we're gonna leave with that to say let's answer a couple more questions if you guys have it and then we're gonna cut off of here I know this is longer than a lot of you had planned on tonight what you one very important caveat well we work with you one-on-one we are going to do our best to look after your interests not the movements interest and so so there's there's a little bit of a balancing we have to do there if we're working with you when your attorney 101 we're gonna we're going to work on your interests and your interests alone and we've been movement issues as much as little as you

want as you need for your case right that'll be a decision for you and how much of that gets in there if it's not directly related to what you need but we will be perfecting your interest with your target so if you yeah and that's a good point because attorneys are beholden to the Bar Association they do work or I guess they don't really think they're not directly being paid by the state but they work for the state and with regard that they are massive conflicting interests yeah they're required to do what they're told by the Bar Association though that's been under some litigation about you know whether or not they can make them do things they

don't believe in well its page is big in the Bar Association right now the Texas Attorney General is actually suing the bar over so if you guys could put your questions in here and let us know if there's anything else that you had to ask us about this new motion argument that we're gonna be sending over to you this weekend please drop them in now so that we don't leave before you get those answers and by the way we usually we aren't always going to be able to answer questions like this it's best if you do send them in advance it just so happened that our presentations were divided up enough to where I could answer them but

as you could see I wasn't able to listen to what he was presenting and kind of covered some of the same stuff he had already said because I was paying attention to you guys and remember his members you're getting the first pass at this which means it's a little less than perfect we will refine it as well do a couple more of these so see miss you said I refuse to use a lawyer I don't blame you no but what we asked you guys to do lawyers are trained with the technicalities in the law so what we say is don't let them change your rights argument just have them help you learn

what technicalities you need to follow in order to get the arguments in front of the court because sometimes parents can even make the argument when they don't understand the legal technical requirements so an example is you could file all of your motions it's happened to cash file all your motions to modify your child because your child support and it not get heard because the judge keeps rejecting them for a technicality or something that wasn't done properly and by the way it was using checkbox forms so I think it was a bunch of BS that they were they were shutting him out you all know that happens but if you can afford to go and ask a lawyer to

help you with that and they are by no means perfect either I've seen them make mistakes and get denied as well but it increases your chances of not getting denied over a technical issue sometimes you don't get a second shot so it's just an extra layer of protection so remember constitutional issues are rush issues which means the states have some freedom to implement them in slightly different ways which means Rules of Civil Procedure can be slightly different from one state to the next and an important ways which can hurt you and we cannot possibly be experts on 50 different Rules of Civil Procedure have to have someone that knows that those local details yeah CMAs you asked so the

motion is more for after you have an order and the pre-trial is better for the first few well okay so the pre-trial I don't know what you what kind of hearing you're saying CMAs but if you're just if you're in if you've never had a final order and/or it's a modification and you guys are trying to get an a modified final order then that pre-trial motion and those other motions the whole motion package what you do is you read through that so that information is in your brain because you don't know what circumstances or what things will be brought up in court they throw things at you that they don't even plead so you

need to be prepared in the only ways to have all of the information then you amend your and again check with your lawyer for the technical ways to do this I'm just telling you how we've been told in general you would then amend your pleadings your answers anything you can to reframe it with the arguments that you're learning from the motions package and in that is the pre-trial motion pretrial motion we updated to kind of incorporate the arguments from the three motions so the three motions are comprehensive then the pre-trial motion simplifies it to try and help you help make it easier for you or your attorney to present it but you want to amend it

into some of your pleadings your answers a counter pleading anything that makes it harder for them to reject it or deny it because if you just follow the motions by themselves they will get denied right you might even get heard on them and have the expensive pain an attorney but the pattern has been for the courts to deny them in a bunch of different states it's been that's the pattern that the courts are that's what we're seeing happening with those that does not mean the arguments are not good does not mean they'll use them that means you have to find another tool to get them in front of the court they can't deny your

petition unless they say that you that you're being sanctioned for doing something like not presenting your discovery on time they start striking pleadings they start doing all right charging you sanction money different states have different sanctions but if you're following the rules that generally cannot deny your petitions your counter responses and the best way to present these arguments is to weave the arguments in with the facts of your case and the facts of your argument good attorneys will do that and good attorneys or just can just do that seamlessly yeah get in touch with us because yours you're saying you're in a status hearing so if you can get in touch with us so we can help guide you a

little better because this is getting like very specific and away from our topic and we're out of time but I do appreciate you coming I know that all of your issues are very important you're all very important to us I appreciate you taking the time to learn this and I hope that it's gonna do for you what it's supposed to give you the relief and accomplish your goals so that you can what drive dream and thrive keep in mind this specific motion is for you facing an enforcement of child support hearing it can be adapted for alimony as well but they wouldn't take a lot of epi but if you argued if you've

got perfectly served but says you haven't followed the order you come to this enforcement hearing and we're going to make you follow the order that's where this motion is for yeah so I think that about wraps it up thanks for coming everyone and we'll see you on the next enforcement webinar you'll all receive information on that soon thanks CMOS I